http://home.epix.net/~hhlindner/Writings/Conoco.html
http://www.naturalchild.org/marshall_rosenberg/compassionate_communicati... (I so want to become a Giraffe instead of a Jackal)
So if the government operates through coercive means, Do any of us act in coercive means in your social circles, and if it is not ok for government....?
Definition: Coercion to effect an unwilling person's agreement to a transaction. It may take the form of a (1) compulsive act, (2) threat that causes fear, or (3) use of moral or social pressure to overpower the will of the individual. Agreements entered into, or testaments signed under, duress are judged illegal and invalid. See also coercion and undue influence.
The government is the sum total of those it governs! If we do not want a society that is coercive, would it then make more sense not to act coercively in our relationships with each other?
"If he who employs coercion against me could mould me to his purposes by argument, no doubt he would. He pretends to punish me because his argument is strong; but he really punishes me because his argument is weak."
William Godwin
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Daimona, I have a new thought about this suggestion of yours that people who love freedom should never try to persuade others to believe things they would not otherwise believe, or to act in ways they would not otherwise act. Your idea is that, since taken to it's extreme persuasion becomes coercion, all attempts at persuasion, and any speech or action that is intended to influence another person, should be avoided.
That, to me, is like saying you should never eat chocolate cake. Taken to it's extreme, eating chocolate cake can kill you, but it does not follow that a piece of chocolate cake from time to time is bad for you. In fact, life would be pretty bland without the occasional sweet dessert. As long as you don't overdo it, you are better off having that occasional piece of cake than you are if you deny yourself the pleasure.
I can think of many examples of things that are good in moderation, but not in excess, or under certain circumstances, but not in others. The use of force to defend yourself or another person from an unprovoked attack is unquestionably good, for example, because the alternative would be for an innocent person to suffer an injury, and for the aggressor to go unpunished.
I maintain that persuasion in the service of truth is good too, as long as it does not amount to outright coercion. If someone believes that our government's socialist agenda is in his best interest, and I set out to persuade him instead that freedom is in his best interest, I think I am doing something good. The preceding is not true, of course, if I am trying to accomplish this by holding his head under water until he agrees with me. If I set up a cult to brainwash people and indoctrinate them into believing in freedom, that's no good either. But if I persist in challenging the assumptions of the socialist, if I don't agree to disagree with him, if I let him know that I don't respect his position, based as it is on false assumptions, and moreover if I am doing all of these things with the express intention of changing his mind, I don't see how I am doing anything wrong. Of course socialists try to persuade people on their end as well. Persuasion in the service of a lie is not so great, of course, but if it is not coercive, then it can easily be countered by persuasion to understand the truth, so I say, let them persuade to their heart's content. We can do it better.
No Claire ...I do not agree with your assessment of what I consider to be coercion. Sharing our thoughts with each other and gaining new perspectives is never what I have ever suggested as being coercion...
The fact that you have come to this conclusion after all of our communicating back and forth has made me come to the conclusion that sometimes- we can talk until we are blue in the face and some people will just not get it!
Good luck in your future communications. :)
>>"Sharing our thoughts with each other and gaining new perspectives is never what I have ever suggested as being coercion..."
That's not what I said. I said I thought you had a problem with persuasion, that is communication with the intention of changing someone's mind and convincing them to do or think what you would like them to do or think. Is that true or not?
If you don't have a problem with persuasion, I don't see how you can object to people on this site using persuasion, as opposed to censorship, to combat rude or abusive comments. I'm not talking about threatening people physically, or blackmailing them or exercising undue influence. How could we possibly exercise undue influence? We are not each other's counselors or therapists, ministers or priests, just a bunch of relative strangers coming together to have a discussion. Neither am I talking about us being abusive ourselves, because that would really defeat the purpose, wouldn't it?
What I am talking about is standing up for civility and decency, and letting rude or abusive people know that we strongly disapprove of their behavior, with down arrows and/or negative (but not abusive) comments, and not to let up on them until they behave appropriately. In other words to give them such a hard time that they either stop being abusive or leave. This should of course be done in a decent, civilized way, without swearing at the person or descending to his level by insulting him. Maybe that was the reason for your negative reaction to my suggestion; you didn't understand that you can give someone a very hard time without being abusive, and you thought I was recommending that we be abusive toward people who post rude messages. What seems obvious to me, namely that it is absurd to post an abusive message in criticism of abuse, might not have been obvious to you. I hope this clears it up***. So to sum it up, I think policing the site ourselves in this way is preferable to censorship (which is far more coercive than persuasion), and it is also preferable to allowing BTM to degenerate into an obscene or abusive forum.
I would like to know whether or not you agree with me about this, and if not, why not? It's a reasonable question, I think.
***It occurs to me that we have had a long and heated exchange so far, which has nonetheless remained pretty polite and civilized. I think your replies to my comments are proof that you can give someone a hard time without being abusive :-)
Claire,
You have twisted every single bit of evidence that I have given to you on coercion. Coercion is exactly the behavior that I stated your original post supported. I am very sorry that you think I (an individual and not a group) am giving you a hard time. I was trying to persuade you not to do it anymore so giving you a hard time I guess is a perception...it is a damn good thing I have not tried to coerce you by getting others to gang up on you and tell you how stupid and rude we all think you are or that might be hypocritical of me. :) So far I think this conversation has remained between you and I -so therefore I do not believe I have tried to coerce you in any way! The post you originally made that I told you was coercive was in regard to you trying to have other members of BTM "all give the person a hard time" to get them to change their behaviors. I still stand by what I said ....I disagree with that kind of mentality and group think behaviors! If you have a problem with someones behavior then decide for yourself how to handle it on an individual basis and do not try to get others to help you! I think calling others to (give someone a hard time) is complete BS and very coercive.
We are finally getting to the bottom of this. You think that "if we all give someone a hard time" implies me contacting other people, perhaps behind the scenes, perhaps out in the open, and mounting a concerted effort to harass someone. You are the one reading meanings into innocent words, Daimona. In fact, all it means is that it seems to me that if a post is obnoxious enough each of us might, on his own, decide to let the author of the post know we strongly disapprove of it, and that the down votes and negative comments would pile up that way. Actually, I'm not guessing about this. I've seen it happen on this site, and I've seen evidence that people learn a valuable lesson from just 3 or 4 negative responses to a rude or abusive post.
My suggestion was to do away with censorship by the management and instead to make everyone aware that the responsibility for keeping the site reasonably polite lies with us. If a post is truly rude or abusive, and enough people are aware that it is their responsibility to criticize it if they want the site to stay polite, I think they will be more likely to step up and voice their objection, and I think that is a good thing, because the alternative is either censorship or letting the bad apples spoil it for everyone else.
I think the idea that people could effectively gang up against someone here is preposterous. What on earth makes you think that the people here are so pliable that such a campaign could even work? If a person is doing nothing wrong, there is no way that you or I or anyone else could persuade a whole gang of people to come down on that person. If such a thing were attempted, I can guarantee you there would be a much stronger contingent of reasonable sane people on the other side coming to that person's defense.
Do you think I am stupid and rude? Do you know other people here that think I am stupid and rude? If so I think we might have an opportunity to put my theory to the test. I hereby give you my permission to try to get as many people as you like to "gang up" on me. E-mail them privately, or just put out the call on this forum, or start a new forum for that purpose if you think that would be more effective. I am serious. I would really like to see what happens when someone here attempts to organize a gang attack against someone else. I assure you I won't take anything you say personally-- I never do, anyway, and I will not resort to abuse or insults of any kind in my responses. Let's see what happens.
Can you clear this up for me?
>>"I was trying to persuade you not to do it anymore so giving you a hard time I guess is a perception."
I can't make out exactly what it is you were trying to persuade me not to do anymore. Do you think I have been "coercive", however you want to define that word, in my dealings with you? With anyone else? Please be specific. Maybe I can oblige you.
>>"So far I think this conversation has remained between you and I -so therefore I do not believe I have tried to coerce you in any way!"
Given that this conversation is taking place in a public forum I am pretty sure that if no one else has joined this conversation it is because they don't find it particularly interesting or important. I happen to think it touches on a lot of important points about morality, ethics, the law and government, which is why I continue to pursue it. I wish we could focus on those broader points instead of the personal stuff, though. It's not that the personal stuff upsets me, just that I find it boring.
OMG....I said exactly what I meant in that post ...there was no hidden meaning! This whole debate started over your comment about how BTM should handle people who cuss and are rude! My god ...can you please try to be rational at some point in this discussion and deal with the facts laid out before you instead of reading into what I say anything that you think might give you an excuse for promoting coercion?
I'm not looking for any excuses to promote coercion. I'm not interested in promoting coercion at all. I don't think I ever suggested that anything you said had a hidden meaning. I did say that I thought you had read meaning into my words, but never that you were hiding meaning in yours. I did ask a question, though, and I would like an answer. What it is exactly that you want me to stop doing? Is it something other than "coercion" that you want me to stop doing? Just tell me so I can understand what you think I am doing wrong.
Let me make it simple for you. In your opinion, have I or have I not done anything "coercive" (however you want to define that word) on this site at any time? Was my suggestion about how to deal with rudeness coercive? Can a suggestion be coercive, in your opinion?
You have asked me to stop doing something, and furthermore you have stated that you said exactly what you meant in that post. So I am taking your point literally. What is it you want me to stop doing? Are you asking me to stop disagreeing with you? Forgive my presumption, but if you don't tell me what it is, then I have to guess-- and I'm running out of guesses.
You asked me to be rational. As far as I can tell, I have been nothing but rational. You asked me to deal with your "facts". I think I have answered each and every one of them with evidence of my own. What do you think of the Wikipedia definitions of "undue influence" and "duress"? Is there something wrong with those definitions, in your opinion? Please find the hole in my argument and point it out to me. I would like to know exactly where you think I made a mistake.
What part of the last post did not explain exactly what I thought was wrong with your original post that started this whole nightmarish ordeal? I am so done with this conversation!
Take a breath and count to 10. wow.
"It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brush fires of freedom in the minds of men." -- Samuel Adams
I have explained to you:
A/ Why your overly broad definition of coercion is detrimental to personal accountability, as it encourages hypersensitivity and a victim mentality.
B/ Why, if it were ever to be accepted in a court of law, it would end up leading to miscarriages of justice: murderers claiming peer pressure as an excuse for their crimes, people who find certain speech "coercive" using the courts to censor it.
C/ Why it can justify the excessive use of force by the government: The concept of "economic coercion" is very often used by those on the Left to justify re-distribution of wealth. Since our constitution maintains that the purpose of government is, among other things, to protect liberty, then whatever is truly coercive must be illegal. Therefore if something like peer pressure is coercive, then peer pressure and other attempts at non-forceful persuasion would have to be illegal. There would have to be official limits on the ways people are allowed to interact that go way beyond those that exist today.
D/ That free speech is preferable to censorship, and that civil discourse is preferable to rudeness and obscenity and that therefore it might be a good idea if we ourselves took responsibility for keeping the site clean, instead of relying on management to censor posts or allowing insulting and abusive posts to go unanswered.
I am sorry you didn't get it. I'm sure others did. It all seems pretty clear to me.
It's been really interesting discussing this with you, Daimona, and I've learned a few things too. Now I know a bit more about the legal concepts of undue influence and duress, for example, as well as some of the more insidious tactics that the government may eventually use to strip us of yet more of our liberty.
You fell hook, line and sinker buddy, as I did ONCE. Choose your forums carefully. Tom
The following quotes from Wikipedia might help you understand why Wollersheim won his case against the Church of Scientology, and what constitutes coercion according to the law:
>>COERCIVE PERSUASION
"Coercive persuasion comprises social influences capable of producing substantial behavior, attitude and ideology change through the use of coercive tactics and persuasion, via interpersonal and group-based influences.
(...)In the cases of Molko vs. Holy Spirit Association and Wollersheim vs. Church of Scientology, coercive persuasion was connected by the plaintiffs to the legal concept of undue influence[11][12].
[Please note, Daimona, that it is UNDUE INFLUENCE, rather than coercive persuasion, or psychological coercion that is the legal concept here. Without undue influence (or "duress" (see below) you can't prove coercive persuasion or psychological coercion. So, with regard to the law, what can be considered as psychological coercion depends on whether there has been undue influence (or duress-- see below).]
"UNDUE INFLUENCE:
Undue influence (as a term in jurisprudence) is an equitable doctrine that involves one person taking advantage of a position of power over another person. It is where free will to bargain is not possible."
Undue influence in contract law
If undue influence is proved in a contract, in USA law, the contract is voidable by the innocent party, and the remedy is rescission. There are two categories to consider:
* Presumed undue influence
* Actual undue influence
Presumed undue influence
First subgroup
In the first subgroup, the relationship falls in a class of relationships that as a matter of law will raise a presumption of undue influence. Such classes include:
* Parent/child
* Guardian/ward
* Priest/member of parish
* Solicitor/client
* Doctor/patient
In such cases, the onus of proof lies on a doctor, say, to disprove undue influence on a patient.
Second subgroup
The second subgroup covers relationships that do not fall into the first subgroup, but on the facts of case, there was an antecedent relationship between the parties that led to undue influence. The test is one of whether there was a relationship of such trust and confidence that it should give rise to such a presumption (see Johnson v. Buttress (1936) 56 CLR 113).
In Garcia v National Australia Bank (1998) 194 CLR 395, the High Court of Australia distinguished between cases of actual undue influence and situations where the transaction is set aside because the guarantor does not understand the nature of the transaction. Although there is no presumption of undue influence, a "lender is to be taken to have understood that, as a wife, the surety may repose trust and confidence in her husband in matters of business and therefore to have understood that the husband may not fully and accurately explain the purport and effect of the transaction to his wife; and yet... did not itself take steps to explain the transaction to the wife or find out that a stranger had explained it to her."
Actual undue influence
An innocent party may also seek to have a contract set aside for actual undue influence, where there is no presumption of undue influence, but there is evidence that the power was unbalanced at the time of the signing of the contract.
Undue influence in probate law
"Undue Influence" is the most common ground for will contests and are often accompanied by a capacity challenge. In probate law, it is generally defined as a testator's loss of free agency regarding property disposition through contemporaneous psychological domination by an advisor which results in an excessive benefit to the advisor. It is important to note that "undue influence" is only an issue when the advisor is benefiting, not when advisor is getting a benefit for someone else; in that case it would be considered fraud. In litigation most jurisdictions place the burden of proving undue influence on the party challenging the will.
[My note: The Church of Scientology fits two of the categories of relationship that can raise a presumption of undue influence: A. priest/member of parish and B. doctor/ patient, because Scientology is BOTH a religion and a system of psychological counseling.]
"DURESS:
Duress in the context of contract law is a common law defense, and if one is successful in proving that the contract is vitiated by duress, the contract may be rescinded, since it is then voidable.
Duress has been defined as a "threat of harm made to compel a person to do something against his or her will or judgment; esp., a wrongful threat made by one person to compel a manifestation of seeming assent by another person to a transaction without real volition." - Black's Law Dictionary (8th ed. 2004)
Duress in contract law falls into two broad categories:
* Physical duress, and
* Economic duress
Duress to the person
Professor Ronald Griffin, Washburn University School of Law, Topeka, KS, puts physical duress simply: "Ya money o yo life." In Barton v. Armstrong [1976] AC 104, a decision of the Privy Council, Armstrong threatened to kill Barton if he did not sign a contract, which was set aside due to duress to the person. An innocent party wishing to set aside a contract for duress to the person need to prove only that the threat was made and that it was a reason for entry into the contract; the onus of proof then shifts to the other party to prove that the threat had no effect in causing the party to enter into the contract. Duress can be made also by social influence.
Duress to goods
In such cases, one party refuses to release the goods belonging to the other party until the other party enters into a contract with them. For example, in Hawker Pacific Pty Ltd v Helicopter Charter Pty Ltd (1991) 22 NSWLR 298, the contract was set aside after Hawker Pacific's threats to withhold the helicopter from the plaintiff unless further payments were made for repairing a botched paint job.
Economic duress
Although hard bargaining occurs legitimately in commercial contracts, duress may be in the form of breaching an existing contract between the two parties unless the innocent party agrees to enter into another contract. Austin v. Loral. The contract is voidable if the innocent party can prove that it had no other practical choice (as opposed to legal choice) but to agree to the contract.
The elements of economic duress
1. Wrongful or improper threat: No precise definition of what is wrongful or improper. Examples include: morally wrong, criminal, or tortuous conduct; one that is a threat to breach a contract "in bad faith" or threaten to withhold an admitted debt "in bad faith".
2. Lack of reasonable alternative (but to accept the other party's terms). If there is an available legal remedy, an available market substitute (in the form of funds, goods, or services), or any other sources of funds this element is not met.
3. The threat actually induces the making of the contract. This is a subjective standard, and takes into account the victim's age, their background (especially their education), relationship of the parties, and the ability to receive advice.
4. The other party caused the financial distress. The majority opinion is that the other party must have caused the distress, while the minority opinion allows them to merely take advantage of the distress."
It is clear to me that the Church of Scientology was exercising undue influence over the plaintiff, and that the plaintiff donated his money to the church under duress. I also want to be clear that I don't condone any of the actions described above.
Here's what I don't understand:
As you know, I have suggested that rather than have the management of BTM censor posts that are rude or nasty, these posts should be left up and BTM members should themselves criticize the offending writer. I said that if we give obnoxious people "a hard enough time", they would either clean up their act or leave the site. Why do you have a problem with that? I am clearly not advocating the use of undue influence or duress as defined above. This is not a religion or a therapy group, it's a forum for people who want to promote freedom from excessive government. Moreover, anyone who behaves in a really bullying manner towards the original obnoxious writer will himself be open to criticism for that. I think we are for the most part decent honorable people here, and we can certainly stand up to those who are destructive and hostile without being destructive and hostile ourselves. And if I want to give a hostile or rude writer a piece of my mind with the objective of getting him to stop, I don't see anything wrong with that. Why do you?
If I understand you correctly, you are claiming that it is morally wrong to interact with someone in a way that is calculated to change his behavior, under ALL circumstances, even in the case where that person is being abusive and you want him to stop. Is that right?
We are all autonomous adults here; let's behave like autonomous adults instead of cringing, whining victims. Don't you worry that if we have a policy of walking on eggshells around each other we will become hypersensitive and hyper self-conscious and hyper reluctant to broach controversial topics? What good would that do for the freedom movement? The minute we stepped out of this cocoon into the real world we'd be trampled to bits.
As far as "policing" the site goes, it seems to me that we have one of three options:
1- BTM management institutes a no censorship policy, so they can't delete offensive posts. In addition to that BTM members decide to practice absolute tolerance: we let anyone be as abusive, inappropriate and hostile as they like, while we, as the good, moral freedom lovers that we are, refrain from criticizing their behavior because we do not want to influence their behavior with our words, even if that behavior is rude and abusive. We second guess any and everything we are about to post, and if we find that we feel the slightest motivation to influence or persuade another person, we refrain from making the comment we had in mind. The result is that the few obnoxious members get to shout whatever rude hostile or abusive thing they like from the roof tops without any resistance from the many decent reasonable members. I think this is the way you would like us all to interact-- please correct me if I am wrong.
2- Overtly, we practice absolute tolerance of other people's behavior as described in option 1 but privately, behind the scenes, we ask BTM management to delete the offensive posts. I can't imagine you would be in favor of this hypocritical approach, but maybe I am wrong.
3- BTM management institutes a no censorship policy, and the members of BTM who care about such things take it upon themselves to keep the discourse on this site up to an acceptable level of decency and civility by letting rude and abusive people know in no uncertain terms that we do not tolerate rude and abusive behavior. This is my suggestion.
4- What we have now which is that we feel free to give offensive people a hard time, and BTM also reserves the right to delete certain posts.
Lest you object that the true solution is for everyone to be nice, let me point out that if you know anything about human nature you will understand that having everyone be decent and polite at all times is not an option, it's a pipe dream.
that the management of BTM seems very reluctant to censor anything, and that this is a very free and liberal (in the old fashioned sense) site. That is one of the things I love about this site.
Full disclosure: I once used the "flag as offensive" tag to alert management to a particularly obscene post, but I have made up my mind not to flag anything as offensive again.
Also: I think it's perfectly OK to delete spam and other posts that are mass mailings and not intended to be comments.
Posted on the wrong page-- Sorry :-)
Re: the first article you posted, about freedom, I agreed completely with the first half, and the author's definition of force: "Force is the use of violence to usurp control over a person's body, privacy or property." I also agree that it is not legitimate for the government to initiate force against anyone on to interfere in interactions between individuals.
Here's where it starts to break down for me:
>>"THE GOVERNMENT'S SOLE PURPOSE SHALL BE TO ASSURE THAT THE USE OF FORCE IS PROHIBITED IN ALL RELATIONSHIPS AMONG HUMAN BEINGS--MEN, WOMEN, AND CHILDREN."
I have two problems with this. The first is that this would make it illegal for me to stop my 18 month old child from running out into the street, because I am preventing him from doing what he perceives to be in his best interests ("pretty cars-- want to touch.") Or how about a less extreme example. If all the explaining in the world should fail to persuade a child to brush his teeth, is it really wise to let him go to bed every night with dirty teeth, which would cause him to get cavities? Because children aren't always capable of deciding what is in their best interest, parents do sometimes have to make them do certain things, or to prevent them from doing other things.
Secondly, It is legitimate to use force against someone else if that person is attacking you or trying to steal your property. If the government prohibits the use of force in all cases, then you would not be able to defend yourself or anyone else against physical attacks. "The initiation of force" might be a better way to put it, and I would exclude children from that statement, with the proviso that child abuse should be punishable by law.
>>"Consider what a truly consensual society would look like. Consider what life would be like if we are able to separate the State from every aspect of life. Its role would be limited to the negative one of defining property rights including money and preventing/redressing every form of coercion and violence among persons. How will such a consensual society differ from what we have now?"
>>"NATURAL GOVERNMENT – limited to defining property rights (including environmental laws and money) and run by citizens chosen at random from the population. All decisions made locally whenever possible."
"Chosen at random"? What? That makes no sense to me. Chosen by whom? What if they don't want the job?
>>"GOVERNMENT MONEY – Money is an extremely useful legal invention. Government would create token money and spend it into circulation. It would not borrow money from private banks as it does now. It would not need to tax citizens, thus eliminating a great deal of pernicious intervention. See http://www.monetary.org/"
We should NOT allow the government to "create money". Printing money to pay for services is a terrible idea. It is what has caused all this inflation we are suffering from now.
>>"NATURAL BANKING--Bank's would be forbidden to create money via loans as they do now. Simple honesty requires 100% reserves. Money creation would be the job of a limited government."
In a free market, the government does not interfere with how banks do business. It is up to depositors to beware of poor banking practices.
>>"NATURAL PROPERTY LAWS -- Property rights have been inappropriately extended to patents and copyrights, leading to excessive rewards for the wealthy and clever who least need money. Prices are increased so that the poor cannot afford information or products that they need."
Intellectual property is property. It is the fruit of the labor of artists, musicians and other inventors. There people have every right to profit from their own work and to have their intellectual property protected for a reasonable period of time.
>>"NO CORPORATIONS -- Adam Smith warned us never to allow corporations to exist, except for temporary state purposes. He knew that they would distort all business activity, as indeed they have. Corporations are government created, government regulated bureaucracies that unnaturally separate ownership and responsibility. Corporate managers are free to enrich themselves and induced to follow short-sighted policies. A corporation is not ethical in its foundations, and cannot be expected to behave ethically. Ethical behavior requires completely private ownership, control, and responsibility."
This contradicts the rule that the government may not interfere in the right for individuals to form whatever association they want with other individuals, and to transact in whatever way they want, including as a group, with anyone else.
>>"NATURAL CONTRACT -- Only custom and reputation are necessary to enforce contracts. Governments should not enforce agreements made by consenting adults. Such intervention on the part of government only encourages false confidence and careless behavior. The only incentive needed to ethical behavior in business is the need to maintain a reputation (a good credit record). The parties of a contract can opt for arbitration should disputes arise."
I think that courts should enforce contracts. It seems to me that if they didn't a lot of economic activity (most of which occurs between people who don't know each other) would grind to a halt. I'm somewhat sympathetic to the argument though. Some breaches of contract could be prosecuted as theft.
>>"NATURAL CIVIL LIABILITY -- The present civil liability system poisons the natural goodwill existing among individuals in a market economy and strengthens the need for government regulation of every aspect of life. Each ruling by a court creates even more de jure rules that strangle our freedom and constrain us to conform to legal codes of behavior. We must increasingly act or not act out of fear of lawsuits—not out of ethical concerns. Individual responsibility and morality disappear in direct proportion to government involvement in our interactions. Only public knowledge, opinion and custom are needed to discipline bad actors. Private insurance will handle the monetary aspects of any kind of tragedy. Criminal acts, i.e. non-consensual or violent acts are handled through criminal law."
So people should pay for the damages that other people cause, through higher insurance premiums. The doctor that amputates the wrong leg because he was drunk and the company that puts poisonous paint on toys get off scot free? I don't think so.
>>"NATURAL MORALITY--THE END OF LEGALISM – Legalism replaces scriptural commandments with human commandments. Its just a new version of an ignorant old game. Humans are not machines and words are not reality. We cannot and must not let our lives be controlled by lawyers and judges (priests) who manipulate word formulas to their benefit. Coercion is evil because is destroys human relationships and human values, not because some law was passed by some legislature. Legalism in fact represents the intrusion of coercion into every sphere of human family and social life. In a natural and enlightened human society, the scope of the state will be reduced to a small fraction of its current unlimited role. Written laws will be needed only for the purpose of defining property rights and outlawing every use of, or threat of the use of physical coercion to control another person or take away his property without his consent. In such a society, government and legalism will be confined to their proper role and will not poison the morality of the society. Disputes among persons will be dealt with by arbitration. Communities will elect "wise men" to be their arbiters."
"Wise men"? I prefer a jury of my peers, thank you very much!
As for the jackals and giraffes, I have thoughts about that which I will post later when I have more time.
>>"NO CORPORATIONS -- Adam Smith warned us never to allow corporations to exist, except for temporary state purposes. He knew that they would distort all business activity, as indeed they have. Corporations are government created, government regulated bureaucracies that unnaturally separate ownership and responsibility. Corporate managers are free to enrich themselves and induced to follow short-sighted policies. A corporation is not ethical in its foundations, and cannot be expected to behave ethically. Ethical behavior requires completely private ownership, control, and responsibility."
This contradicts the rule that the government may not interfere in the right for individuals to form whatever association they want with other individuals, and to transact in whatever way they want, including as a group, with anyone else.
Have to look up Adam Smith quote and contemplate it.
Yet corruption is caused by individuals not a business. They will use a business to do their dirty deed tho.
The government has a judicial branch set up by our forefathers to oversee contracts and settle differences. If they did not it, would be for me to do it and that is anarchist. If all men were honest it would be a great thing.
Corporations are not government created. It starts out ussually with one maybe two people form a business. The business grows and maybe more join. Eventually somewhere they decide they need capital to really grow. So they incorporate for stocks. Of course they may do the same to protect their personal assets from business assets.
When stocks enter the market, there is one problem. People's ignorance. If you buy stocks of a company you are a owner. If that company goes bankrupt you can be held personally liable to settle the affair. It has happened. Most only buy thinking of riches, think again. Ignorant people are often taken advantage of. Not by choice of anyone, just by that person being ignorant of their responsibility to it.
I wonder when people buy stocks if they wonder if it is an honest business? Na, just send me the money.
Now who created the ethics question here?
In stocks as simple as getting rid of them. But how many are still holding onto their stocks? Or not taking a measure to protect those assetts. Your fault, not anyone else's. Knowledge or lack there of. I tell my clients if your not making money. Fire me immediately and look for someone who knows how to make money. That is called money management.
Now one more problem with corporations. Huge companies give enormously to Federal politicains for special interest into their affairs. That is why our forefathers sought the Federal government be limited to its duties. Otherwise it becomes a democracy or mob rule rather then individual freedom. In trying to safe guard individual freedoms they created the sovereignty of the states. I wished it was sovereignty of the county at times.
So the duties are specifically to be overseen by the states. Thereby when corruption or poor legislation is done. It is limited to the state and not a Nationnal crisis as is now going on.
>>"NATURAL CIVIL LIABILITY -- The present civil liability system poisons the natural goodwill existing among individuals in a market economy and strengthens the need for government regulation of every aspect of life. Each ruling by a court creates even more de jure rules that strangle our freedom and constrain us to conform to legal codes of behavior... not whole paragraph.
Every ruling of the court does not create rules to stangle our freedoms. The problem is congress has made so many rules that they now conflict with each other that the courts are constantly trying to decide which one takes priority over the other and when. Again Federal government out of bounds as they have no authority in these matters. Rather the state should do it. Of course transporting goods between states would not require but for expediency probably create a Federal law. That has been the real problem. It always starts out for expediency, then watch out. Let me draw two examples of making laws for states working together.
Example of this: Reagan deregulated many industries. One I am very familar with is trucking. At that time we had authority. That authority was granted by the Federal government and costly. You had to run a specific route and you had sole authority to it and could protest any others getting authority to it. This allowed employers to basicly charge what they would. Labor could demand wages and without competition passed it to a customer who had no other choices.
When Reagan deregulated. Anyone could get authority to haul anywhere. Prices went down an so did labor. Customers got it cheaper, passed onto consumers. Most of those companies have gone the way side with new big companies demanding preference from government. These new big companies have been asking Federal government to form more an more laws on drivers. Trying to eliminate the competition. They gradually are doing it. The black box will finally end the competition. This is Federal.
As in building laws. The government has now created a rule book that almost all states have excepted as the standard builidng laws. Not really a bad idea as it makes things more expedient and easily understood by all. Does not mean that Denver will build like Minnesota. It does mean if conditions in two parts of the USA are the same. It will be built by same laws or rules. I believe this has been a fair and decent law. It was not created by the Federal government, but by the states and builders association, engineers and etc. in coperation to make it easier for contracts to cross state lines understanding the code to work under.
As you can see in these two examples how Federal caters to big business wishes, eliminating competition. Versus states seeking equal access to other states.
Federal government constantly tries to seek the good of the majority(mob rule). States seek the good of their state cooperating together. Sovereignty of states is crucial.
Civil liability is cheating another, or accidently doing damage to another. These are only laws respecting each others property rights. Laws only need to be made to protect property rights.
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Legalism will never end. It has been a journey for me. Laws are required in every society to have a civil society. The problem arises when one crosses to legalism which Christ himself condemned. What is legalism. My rules forced on you. That simple. The Pharisees had, if I remember right, about 5000 of them.
I think our forefathers did a tremendous job here as most of them had strong Christian beliefs. After all, how does one form a government knowing man has a tendency to stray, yet keep society civil and free?
They knew there was those that believed in no God and they had to have their choice also, unhindered.
Let me say only this, sometimes we all have to grit and bite our lips to deny asking the government to do that which we could not convince another to do. Moreso, demand the government not to do it on my behalf as a courtesy gesture.
Example: I do not believe in abortion. Strong theological evangelical Christian here. Yet, I feel many of my associates missed a point in the gospels. A theologian of Jesus's time came and asked Jesus the question. Why did you allow Moses to grant divorce?
That Biblibal passage is often pointed to why one should never get divorced accept only if you cannot stand the abuse. I for one can not counsel that way. When it comes to man's heart and God. I sure do not want to be in the way. God even asked the O.T. judges to allow room for God to judge.
I see this passage as Jesus explaining that marriage was intended for life. Who stands at the alter with the intention of divorce? Yet, I also see Jesus made an exception for the Jews with Moses. Why? You will have to make your own decision, but here is mine. Abortion like divorce is getting personal.
I personally believe you ought to do every thing possible to do God's will, yet he makes exceptions, because there is sin.
A child gets pregnant by rape or otherwise. The parent and child have to decide. No this is not about abortion being abhored. I agree. It is about, if the child commits suicide, who is guilty now? Or the child grows or the baby with who knows what mental condition. Then who is guilty? God never intended for death, divorce or abortion. Yet they are here and he allows exceptions. Why? Because each of us are built differently and what one can take or handle. Another cannot. Therefore judge ye yourself this matter with your creator?
I will allow you to answer to your creator on the matter or the lack of your recognition of one. I just believe government should not encourage such behaviour with financial aid or curriculm.
For that another person to give aid, of course one who does becomes an accesory. So be it, not a Nation. Laws will never make a nation or individual ethical or moral. Just like a gun has no ethics. Only one human encouraging another to higher ground.
Anyhow that is my views on these things for individual freedom and government.
Charleydan...why are you posting your comment on this post I do not see the connection?
OK, I will not post anymore links to other peoples work unless I have read the whole thing...
And I am pretty sure I did not articulate my thoughts adequately, because you went in a completely different direction then what my intended meaning!
The definition for coercion I was using for our relationships is #3..The whole point I am trying to make Claire is that if we expect a free-market society, with integrity...maybe we might want to apply the same principles of liberty to our lives on a daily basis!
It is not a new concept I am just trying to put it into a practical workable concept....sorry ...maybe we can find one through dialetic means:)
>>"The definition for coercion I was using for our relationships is #3..The whole point I am trying to make Claire is that if we expect a free-market society, with integrity...maybe we might want to apply the same principles of liberty to our lives on a daily basis!"
OK, let me address that then. You are right to say "maybe we might want", as opposed to "that's the only way we can ever be free". I agree that we should all try to be nice to one another, not call one another names etc... BUT I want to make a few points:
A/ Universal kindness and tolerance are not necessary conditions for freedom. If they were, we could never hope to be free! It's all very well to look inward and to try and perfect yourself, but meanwhile elections are coming and going and you may not be getting the message of freedom that you believe in as effectively as you could be doing. In order to communicate this message you need to look outward, you might even have to (God forbid!--) criticize certain things or certain people. If everyone who wants freedom focused on what you are suggesting we focus on, we would be wasting a lot of precious time gazing at our navels, worrying about whether we are giraffes or jackals or whatever. Meanwhile the mainstream media would be having a grand old time pushing lies and misinformation, without any opposition.
B/ Unpleasant and ornery people can push for freedom as well, sometimes more effectively than more easygoing types. A free society accommodates all kinds of people. That's the beauty of it. And that is it's strength as well. I wouldn't want to give people the impression that freedom only works if everyone is perfect because for one thing it isn't true, and for another it will encourage people who understand human nature doesn't change much to believe that therefore we can never have a free society. The fact is that we can all stay pretty much the way we are and have freedom too! I say this because I believe that the vast majority of people, even the cranky ones, are basically good and decent.
C/ I am very wary of ideologies that are based on changing people's psychology or language or the way they naturally relate to others, or that are based on a utopian vision of perfected human beings. No matter how benign the ideology in question may seem, if its proponents come to power they will be tempted to use coercion when they don't see people complying with them voluntarily. Just look at the kinds of ideas the author of "Consensualism over Coercion" came up with, for example. He imagines that one day we will all be free and no one will want to harm anyone else. Therefore we won't need courts, etc... just "wise men" arbitrators (who of course will have only the purest of motives). Imagine if this author became our president, and saw that people were just not behaving as nicely as he had hoped? I wonder to what lengths he might go to make sure that they did. I know you don't agree with everything in that essay. But I am just pointing out where that kind of thinking can lead if you take it to its logical end.
I appreciate the communication, I do not think I am articulating my point adequately if you are still thinking that criticizing another person is what I am calling coercion. Just because two people have a disagreement in no way constitutes coercion and has nothing to do with any ideology. Not using coercion against another human being has nothing to do with being nice to them. I can very easily be rude to you without worrying about whether I am coercing you! Matter of fact, if I were being rude to you I would be acting less coercive then if I chose to use “socially acceptable niceties” to persuade you if those behaviors were not sincere and authentic. Because I would be doing them disingenuously, in the hope of using public opinion to help me force you into submitting to my side. For example, if you and I were having a disagreement and if we are handling it through on going dialect, that is not the same as you and I having a disagreement and me going to others and asking them to defend my point and attack yours!< Now depending how much of an advantage they would receive by taking my side opposed to yours is where “coercion” enters the picture. If they felt they would gain or lose by engaging on one side or the other is where it becomes socially coercive! We have been trained in this art of societal combat for millions of years! I argue it is not beneficial and that if we can learn to apply the same libertarian principle of non-intervention in our social circles and be friends with all people and allies with none that free-trade whether it be monetary or any other form of mutual exchange as a society we will be more free! But this is just one principle that is in direct contrast with our behaviors and what we expect of our government! If you are not harming me or my property then you have committed no offence against me and therefore your behaviors are none of my business.
If I tell you that your definition of coercion is bizarre and unnecessarily convoluted, am I engaging in coercive behavior as you see it? I am after all appealing to a commonly held definition of the word "coercion" and pointing out (to you, but also perhaps to others) that your definition does not conform to the "socially acceptable" one.
Or is it only coercive if I am not being "sincere and authentic" in my criticism, in other words, if I don't really believe that your definition is bizarre, but for some reason I am saying it anyway. Or would I have to be lying about what I believe in order to persuade you or others of something? Would that fit your definition of coercion?
If I am telling the truth about what I think of your definition of coercion, and my opinion is the socially acceptable one, and others agree with what I say, and they tell you so, have we all then coerced you? Or have we only coerced you if the socially acceptable definition of coercion is, in an objective sense, wrong? If that is the case is our behavior toward you coercive even if we don't know that your definition is really the right one, or is it only coercive if we are deliberately trying to quash the truth?
Consider this scenario: Say I am at a PTA meeting at my local public school in a district where most of the residents are very socialistically minded. Suppose that for months I have been thinking about freedom philosophy and have been feeling increasingly uncomfortable with the coercion involved in forcing people to pay for public schools through taxes. The question comes up about how we can get more funding from the federal government, and it is my turn to speak. I consider announcing to everyone there that I think public education should be abolished, and that it is not right for me or anyone else to be forced by the government to pay for the education of other people's children. Well, I guess you can imagine the kind of reaction such a statement would cause in that particular situation. I know that if I speak the truth, people are going to think I am out of my mind, or evil and selfish. Former friends will no longer want to associate with me, and subsequent PTA meetings would be far more unpleasant. I think that in order to determine whether I am being coerced, I have to answer the following question: do I still have the CHOICE to say what I believe is true, or has that choice been removed by the threat of social pressure?
If I thought that the people around me were going to attack me physically, or to steal my purse or vandalize my home or my car as a result of what I said, then I would argue that yes, I was in a coercive situation, and it would be reasonable for me to keep my mouth shut. I would also have a legitimate grievance against the school I was in, a legitimate basis for complaint that my freedom of speech had been infringed upon.
But what if the only consequence of me speaking out were to be that many of the people around me would give me the cold shoulder from now on, that I would lose former friends, etc... That would not be sufficient for me to claim that I was a victim of coercion. In fact, I would feel like an abject coward if I went along with the group for no other reason than that I want people to like me. I would have no legitimate grievance against the school or the PTA, because they hadn't FORCED me to do anything. If I didn't end up speaking my mind it's not because I feared for my safety, but because I was worried about other people's opinion of me. If I didn't say what I was after all entirely free to say, I would only have had myself to blame. I would have had the choice, and I would have taken the easy way out.
What you do in situations like that is what defines who you are. Some people have refused to be coerced in much more dire situations than the one I described above, and some people are so afraid of other people's opinion of them that they will say whatever they think other people want to hear (so I guess they feel coerced all the time). I don't think that you could convince any jury that your freedom of speech was being taken away because it would have made you unpopular to speak out, so peer pressure doesn't amount to coercion in a legal sense. I don't think it does in an ethical sense either. After all, people should be free to like or dislike whoever they please, and the desire to be liked or the fear of being disliked should not prevent a person from standing up for what he believes in.
Great argument, I like it! You can rationalize unacceptable behavior really well, Kudos! You have great denial skills I bet!
FYI this is the legal definition of coercion!
Any person’s set of feasible choices is obtained from the combination of two elements: the initial endowment (the perceived initial state of the world, which the chosen actions are going to affect) and the transformation rules (which state how any chosen action will change the initial endowment, according to the person’s perception).
It follows that coercion could in principle take place by purposely manipulating either the transformation rules or the initial endowment (or both). In practice, however, the detailed choice reaction of a victim to a change in initial endowment is generally unpredictable. Hence effective coercion can only be carried out through manipulation of the transformation rules. This is done by the credible threat of some injury, conditional on the victim’s choice. Often, it involves the actual inflicting of injury in order to make the threat credible, but it is the threat of (further) injury which brings about the change in transformation rules.
Coercion does not remove entirely the victim’s ability to choose, nor does it necessarily affect his or her ranking of potential alternatives. As Roman jurists used to say, coactus volui, tamen volui (I willed under coercion, but still I willed). In the terminology of rational choice theory, coercion does not remove a person’s objective function, but only affects the constraints under which such function is maximised. Yet, the purpose of coercion is to substitute one’s aims to those of the victim. For this reason, many social philosophers have considered coercion as the polar opposite to freedom.
One must however distinguish various forms of coercion: first on the basis of the kind of injury threatened, second according to its aims and scope, and finally according to its effects, from which its legal, social, and ethical implications mostly depend.
Means
Looking at the content of the threat, one can distinguish between physical, psychological and economic coercion.
Notice these two words>psychological and economic coercion. That indicates social pressure to do what? Psychological coercion
In psychological coercion, the threatened injury regards the victim’s relationships with other people. The most obvious example is blackmail, where the threat consists of the dissemination of damaging information. But many other cases are possible, including purposeful threats of rejection from or disapproval by a peers group, or even mere anger or displeasure by a loved one. Another instance is coercive persuasion.
Psychological coercion – along with the other varieties - was extensively and systematically used by the government of the People’s Republic of China during the “Thought Reform” campaign of 1951-1952. The process – carried out partly at “revolutionary universities” and partly within prisons – was investigated and reported upon by Robert Jay Lifton, then Research Professor of Psychiatry at Yale University: see Lifton (1961). The techniques used by the Chinese authorities included a technique derived from standard group psychotherapy, which was aimed at forcing the victims (who were generally intellectuals) to produce detailed and sincere ideological “confessions”. For instance, a professor of formal logic called Chin Yueh-lin – who was then regarded as China’s leading authority on his subject – was induced to write: “The new philosophy [of Marxism-Leninism], being scientific, is the supreme truth”. [Lifton (1961) p. 545].
Usage
Some people speak of cultural coercion when the fear of falling out with the group may force people into wearing a certain style of dress, publicly reciting a creed or a pledge of allegiance they find ethically reprehensible, starting to smoke when they'd rather not, etc. Within the definitional framework adopted here, all such things amount to (psychological) coercion if and only if the fear of falling out with the group is the result of purposeful threats by someone. See Peer pressure, Sociology of religion, Pledge of Allegiance.
Some people include deception in their definition of (psychological) coercion. Yet deception does not generally involve any threat at all, as it works by creating a mere false perception by the victim of his or her given transformation rules. Although its effects may sometimes be very similar to those of a conditional threat, it may hence be useful to treat deception as separate phenomenon.
Economic coercion
Economic coercion is when a controller of a vital resource uses his advantage to compel a person to do something he would not do if this resource were not monopolized. If someone is the owner of the only water supply, then the owner can compel the thirsty person to pay an exhorbitant price for that water or have him perform enormous labor. This is also referred to as a form of exploitation. It has been argued that as the global economy has expanded greatly in scope, economic coercion has replaced other forms of coercion such as coercion involving physical or military force. [1]
Economic coercion requires market power. In the above example, the coercer's refusal to supply the coercee would be meaningless if the coercee had access to other independent sources of supply. But the coercer can turn his conditional refusal into a vital threat only because of his coercive monopoly over an essential resource, with no other substitutes. In a competitive marketplace, the possibility of economic coercion is much reduced as suppliers are compelled by competition to accept less money or labor for their goods. The potential for economic coercion is one of objections to using markets for organ transplants. [2]
An analogous result can also be obtained through pure monopsony power (where there is only one buyer as opposed to one seller in a monopoly). To reverse the above example, suppose that there are numerous independent suppliers of water, who sell it at a competition market price. If someone can only sell potatoes (to get money to buy water), and there is only one potato buyer he can sell to, then the buyer's simple conditional refusal to buy his potatoes would be a death threat, just as before.
The idea that monopoly control may facilitate coercion has been underlined by some business ethicists and economists. It shows that in some cases the social effects of market power goes beyond those on economic distribution and efficiency (economics).
The term economic coersion is also used within economics to refer to sanctions imposed by a powerful government or group of countries against another.[3].
Aims
The aims of coercion can vary widely from totally "selfish" to totally altruistic ones: from attempts to gain personal wealth and power at the expense of others to efforts aimed at saving other people’s souls.
Predatory coercion
The purely selfish kinds of coercion are a form of predatory behaviour by the coercing party, whose aim is to narrow down the scope of other people’s actions so as to make them instrumental to its own personal interests. According to many social philosophers, this sort of predatory behaviour would become the prevailing one under conditions of social anarchy.
Pedagogic and thought coercion
At the other extreme of the spectrum one finds attempts to use coercion altruistically, as a pedagogical device to improve – in some supposedly objective sense – the way other people think, with particular regard to their basic attitudes and values. Pedagogic coercion may be applied within a strictly educational context, and it is then mostly directed towards children. In this article, however, attention will focus on thought coercion, i.e. the attempt to use coercion to affect the basic values of grown-up people in general.
In all forms of thought coercion the immediate objective is to force other people to act as if their basic choice rules were identical to those of the coercing party. However, this mere conformity of “outward” behaviour is but a first step. The true and final aim of thought coercion is to induce a change in the victim’s objective function itself, i.e. the basic set of values and rules by which the victim determines his or her own choice among the alternatives of any feasible set. Thought coercion is thus generally meant to be only temporary. Once the desired change in values has been brought about, the victim is expected to conform spontaneously, without any need for further coercion.
Whether and under what conditions this final aim can in fact be stably achieved is a difficult question, and it will be considered in the section devoted to the effects of coercion. Here it is necessary to point out that, whatever its effectiveness, thought coercion has in fact been used very extensively throughout history.
Religious coercion
The most ancient, extensive and durable kind of thought coercion has concerned religion. Religious coercion is a subset of predatory coercion, in which the selfish entity is a supernatural one. The threat typically manifests as a promise by the entity to respond to incorrect behavior with damnation--eternal discomfort. This coercion has taken the form of religious discrimination and persecution, including forced conversions, and on many occasions it has led to religious wars.
Christianity's early persecution by Rome had in fact political rather than strictly religious objectives. But its subsequent expansion was associated with a substantial amount of purely religious coercion, mainly by Christians against members of other religions and heretics. Moreover, Christianity’s tendency to strong and systematic religious coercion – particularly but not only by the Roman Catholic Church – has long outlived its first few centuries, and has only been finally checked – though by no means extinguished - by the emergence of modern liberal democracies, with their principle of firm separation between Church and State.
Ideological coercion
Ideological coercion is the use of thought coercion in the attempt to modify people’s social and political philosophy. This is of course quite different from plain propaganda, or even the simple persecution of political opponents, because its objective is to force individual ideological conversions. Unlike religious coercion, it is a quite recent phenomenon, confined to some of the totalitarian regimes of the twentieth century.
The most notable single example of ideological coercion was the already mentioned Chinese “Thought Reform” campaign of 1951-52, which signalled itself for both thoroughness and number of people involved. Yet, it must be noticed that by 1966 the Chinese authorities found it necessary to follow that up with a new – albeit slightly milder – campaign, as part of the Maoist “Cultural Revolution” of 1966-1968.
Starting from the Soviet purges of the Thirties, similar “brainwashing” techniques were intermittently and less systematically used by most Communist regimes of the twentieth century. By contrast, the Fascist and Nazi regimes of Italy and Germany tended to confine their coercive activities to purely political aims, without any serious attempt to force the ideological conversion of their opponents. The use of (physical) ideological coercion was however theorised by some Fascist philosophers, like Giovanni Gentile and Jared Harfield.
Disciplinary coercion
Somewhere in the middle between predatory and pedagogic coercion one finds the forms of coercion that are used as the main coordination tools of command systems. These are organisations that use coercion to enforce on their members patterns of division of labour aimed at reaching the organisation’s goals, which for a variety of reasons may not always be consistent with each member’s personal aims. The most typical example of a command system is a military organisation, but any large production team may easily fall into this category.
Through the punishment system of disciplinary coercion, each individual member is typically forced into altruistic behaviour in the interest of the whole group. This is why this kind of coercion is not predatory, and – unlike thought coercion – may often be accepted in advance by the members of the group.
Scope
The scope of coercion has to do with who uses a conditional threat against whom. It is closely linked with some of the other aspects already surveyed above, and may be of paramount importance in determining coercion’s effects and implications.
Specific coercion
Specific or personal coercion is the most commonly considered kind. It takes place when the conditional threat is decided upon by one particular individual or small group, and/or directed against some other individual or small group. All forms of predatory and thought coercion fall into this category.
Unspecific coercion
Under unspecific or impersonal coercion the conditional threats come from well-known and socially accepted general rules – rather than any individual or sub-group – and are directed against anybody in the stated conditions, according to clearly stated principles of due process. In practice, the narrowing down of individual choice may be here principally aimed at reducing the incidence of specific coercion, rather than forcing on everybody some special sub-set of positive goals. More generally, unspecific coercion may be the form taken by disciplinary coercion, and this appears to be in fact the case within the most effective command systems of the modern world.
Unspecific coercion is thus the same thing as the rule of law in its widest sense. This must not however be confused with the monopoly of coercion by the State. First, State coercion may very easily be arbitrary – indeed technically very specific, according to the above definition. Second, there are well-documented historical examples of (small) societies that have practiced unspecific coercion without the help of State institutions – like Iceland in the early Middle Ages. The identification between State and law is but a special normative principle introduced by (public) Roman law, which according to some, like Maitland, was for this very reason to be treated as the quintessential “law of tyranny”.
Effects
The effects of coercion may differ substantially according to its type and scope. Here they will be considered from the legal, psychological, social and ethical points of view.
Legal effects
In most legal systems, the use of physical specific coercion by private individuals is a criminal offence in all cases not involving self defence.
The picture is less simple for psychological specific coercion, owing to the general difficulty in finding clear evidence for it. In most systems psychological coercion is treated as a criminal offence when it is aimed at extortion, as is typical of blackmail. It is also punished when it leads to undue influence, defined as a master-slave relationship.
Finally, economic coercion is generally unlawful under most systems of anti-trust legislation, where it can amount to either a criminal offence – as under the Sherman Act of the US – or an administrative offence liable to a mere fine – as under EU legislation on the abuse of a dominant position. It is important however to remember that trade unions and other groups of organised workers are mostly exempted from this general principle for acts of economic coercion (like strikes) against their employers.
Legal methods themselves may employ coercion, such as when a lawsuit is threatened if a person does not comply with the wishes of the plaintiff.
Exculpation and nullity
Specific coercion may be used as a legal defence in criminal cases for acts committed under threat of injury. Similarly, one may claim the legal nullity of a contract signed under duress.
In both cases, however, the question arises of whether a "reasonable person" would have perceived a threat, and reacted in the same way. Moreover, under most modern legal systems disciplinary coercion cannot be claimed as an exculpating circumstance for war crimes committed under unlawful orders.
Psychological effects: the effectiveness of thought coercion
As already stated, thought coercion – either religious or ideological – is defined by its ultimate end to alter the fundamental values and beliefs of its victims. To ask whether this can in fact be done is to put a fundamental and age-old question: can conscience be coerced?
At the beginning of the sixth century, in a famous letter to the Jews of Genoa, the Gothic king Theodoric the Great, who was an Arian Christian, wrote: “...We cannot command the religion of our subjects, since no-one can be forced to believe against his will”: Hodgkin (1886) p. 219. This idea that conscience cannot in fact be coerced originated among the Stoic philosophers of ancient Greece, and resurfaced many centuries later during and after the European Renaissance, as one of the basic tenets of classic (or Whig) liberalism.
The opposite view was however the dominant one within what Karl Popper (1945) has called the Platonic tradition, which included among other things both mainstream Christianity and Hegel’s philosophy, with its later polar developments of Marxism and Fascism.
Yet, though these opposite answers may lead to divergent ethical and political prescriptions, the question itself is about a matter of mere psychological fact, which can be addressed empirically, looking at experience. Lifton (1961) on Chinese thought reform is one of the very few such works, and its findings are thus highly relevant here. Very broadly and on the whole, these findings were that on most victims the impact of thought reform tended to be temporary. In the short run it might be considerable, even leading to something close to a profound religious experience – particularly in subjects of relatively younger age (under thirty). But after a few years, and left to themselves, the victims tended to question the principles they had been indoctrinated with, reverting in most cases to their former values and convictions.
If correct, these findings would suggest that thought coercion cannot generally achieve its ultimate goal to permanently affect people’s basic values. In the Chinese case, this prediction came soon true, with the unorthodox outcomes of the “Hundred Flowers” episode of 1957. More generally, one would hence be led to expect that – far from being temporary – thought coercion would have to become a stable feature of society, in order to produce any long-lasting result. And indeed – as seen above – such predicted tendency to repeat and institutionalise itself appears to be borne out by the historical record of thought coercion in both Communist regimes and the Catholic Church.
Social effects: coercion and progress
Whig-liberal tradition
According to the Whig-liberal tradition, due to the Scottish moral philosophers of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, widespread specific coercion has the general effect of limiting society’s ability to find new and better ways of doing things: see e.g. Hayek (1960). This follows from the view of social culture as the outcome of an evolutionary process of adaptation and selection through trial and error. Since specific coercion restricts the range of potential choices to the whims of only a few individuals, it narrows down society’s chances to experiment and select new solutions, and hence its ability to adapt. Thus, it is predicted that in the long run the most successful societies would mainly be those where the incidence of specific coercion was less.
However, this only applies to specific coercion. By contrast, it is argued that unspecific coercion – brought about by the rule of law – does not in itself hinder adaptation in any important way, because it is as uniform and predictable as the constraints following from natural laws. Moreover, the rule of law is the only available way to curb specific coercion. Hence, far from being a hindrance, unspecific coercion is in this view a necessary condition for human progress.
Platonic tradition
Needless to say, those who believe they already know what is best for society, and thus feel no need to rely on any evolutionary process, do not share the Whig-liberal negative view of the social effects of specific coercion. They often opt instead for a so-called social engineering approach, whereby a command system steered by a few competent individuals – and buttressed up by quite specific coercion – is assumed to be the most “rational” way to ensure social progress.
The earliest formulation of this alternative view is found in Plato’s Republic. In modern times the idea re-surfaced during the French Revolution, thanks to Rousseau’s famous distinction between the will of all and a supposed “’’general will’’”, which – unlike the former – was defined as embodying the objective “good” for society. According to Rousseau and his followers, social progress required that those who are somehow inspired by the “general will” should be entitled to enforce it through revolutionary coercion on the will of all. Later on, during the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, this French revolutionary principle – though not of course its specific way to identify the “general will” – percolated into first Socialist and then Fascist political thinking.
Ethical effects: coercion and freedom
To most people, the ethical implications of individual predatory coercion are straightforward. In recent times, some have attempted to extend a similar ethical judgement to non-predatory forms of coercion by individuals. Thus, for instance, the Taking Children Seriously movement has criticised pedagogic coercion by adults, including parents, on children, holding that it is possible and desirable to act with a child in such a way that all activities are consensual.
The ethical standing of wider forms of supposedly “altruistic” specific coercion – like political and thought coercion – is however much more controversial, along lines relating to the assumed relationship between coercion and freedom, which is often regarded as an ethical value in itself.
Coercion as the negation of freedom
The Whig-liberal tradition has led to the well-known notion of (negative) freedom as lack of specific coercion. According to this view, any form of specific coercion is then unethical in itself as an injury to freedom, quite apart from its damaging effects on social progress. Indeed, the ethical value of (negative) freedom is grounded on the idea that conscience cannot be coerced, and is thus the ultimate standard of morality. It hence follows that – from an ethical point of view – coercion cannot even be regarded as a lesser evil: since it cannot produce conscientious behaviour, it can never bring about the fulfilment of any ethical value.
Coercion as a source of freedom
However, the basing of all ethical values on conscience has also produced a diametrically opposed view. Developing the Socratic idea that moral evil is a result of ignorance, the Stoic philosophers had argued that one’s “true” conscience – and hence virtue – could only be attained by freeing oneself from irrationality and passions, through the stern self-control that is typical of wise men. This principle was then fitted into the Christian framework of original sin and the need for “outside” redemption, to produce the idea that on many occasions external specific coercion could and should take the place of self-control in setting ordinary people free from their sinful tendencies. Almost paradoxically, personal spiritual freedom came thus to be often based on specific thought coercion by the inspired few,
This alternative approach has percolated far beyond the religious field, and is shared to-day by all those who think they have a privileged access to “true” conscience, thanks to divine revelation, superior “scientific” knowledge or some other special circumstance. Apart from religious principles, the “true” conscience involved may be class-consciousness, patriotism, altruism, “social” values, political correctness or any other strongly held ethical world-view. The common element is the firm belief that coercion – ranging from legal State-coercion to terrorism – can and should be used to realize “true” freedom for all.
That is a lot of material, Daimona. I am going to assume you wrote it yourself, although the style is different from that of your other posts, because you did not put it in quotation marks or attribute it to another author.
First off, though, I would like you to consider this reply you made to my post about the hypothetical PTA meeting:
>>"Great argument, I like it! You can rationalize unacceptable behavior really well, Kudos! You have great denial skills I bet!"
I am not satisfied with this reply. You did not answer any of the questions I posed in that post. I'm not expecting an answer to all of them; maybe just one or two answers would have been nice, though. I make an effort to answer your questions because I prefer dialogue to monologue. Unlike monologue, dialogue involves listening to the other person and addressing their questions. I could ignore your questions and carry on repeating myself like a broken record, but that would be pretty boring, don't you think?
You said that I "rationalize unacceptable behavior", and seem to want to characterize my arguments and questions as a form of denial. Can you back that up with an argument? I am waiting.
All right, then. Regarding the text on coercion:
>>"FYI this is the legal definition of coercion!"
Did you mean "the following is the legal definition of coercion" meaning the entire text that you posted there? If so, I would like to know in what state, in what country does that text constitute a legal definition of coercion? I googled "legal definition of coercion" and here is a typical example of what I got:
"DEFENSE, COERCION AND INTIMIDATION - Defense that although the person may have committed the acts charged in the indictment, he did not do so voluntarily but only because of force or coercion in the form of intimidation and threats of bodily harm to himself or his family.
In order to excuse an act that would otherwise be criminal, however, the intimidation or coercion must be present and immediate, and must be of such a nature that it induces a reasonable and well-founded fear of death or serious bodily injury to one's self or someone else; and there must be no reasonable opportunity to escape the coercion without participating in the crime." (From the The 'Lectric Law Library)
Think about it, Daimona, if the legal definition of coercion were to include such things as peer pressure, then any gang member could escape conviction for murder on the grounds that he would be rejected by his gang if he didn't kill someone. The legal definition of coercion HAS to be much narrower that what is described in your article, otherwise it would be far too easy to excuse things like murder and theft.
>>"(...)effective coercion can only be carried out through manipulation of the transformation rules. This is done by the credible threat of some injury, conditional on the victim’s choice. Often, it involves the actual inflicting of injury in order to make the threat credible, but it is the threat of (further) injury which brings about the change in transformation rules."
Yes, that is coercion. No argument there.
>>"In the terminology of rational choice theory, coercion does not remove a person’s objective function, but only affects the constraints under which such function is maximised."
I don't fully understand what you mean by this. It might be helpful if you gave me an explanation of what "rational choice theory" is (or if you stated what you want to say in plain English.)
>>"Yet, the purpose of coercion is to substitute one’s aims to those of the victim. For this reason, many social philosophers have considered coercion as the polar opposite to freedom."
I see a logical fallacy here. Just because the purpose of action x is to effect y, it doesn't follow that action x necessarily causes y. In a legal sense, intention is only half of the equation. In order to be found guilty, you must have succeeded in committing a crime. Suppose someone had the intention to make me do something which is the opposite of what I want to do. That tells me nothing about whether that person is coercing me. It only tells me what that person wants. So what? Thank goodness we have not yet gotten to the point in our legal system where we get into people's heads and punish them for the things they WANT to do.
>>"In psychological coercion, the threatened injury regards the victim’s relationships with other people. The most obvious example is blackmail, where the threat consists of the dissemination of damaging information. But many other cases are possible, including purposeful threats of rejection from or disapproval by a peers group, or even mere anger or displeasure by a loved one. Another instance is coercive persuasion."
"Coercive persuasion" is an oxymoron. It's a joke, really, of the kind that a member of the mafia uses when he says "I'm going to make you an offer you can't refuse". It's clearly not an offer. It's a command, backed by the threat of violence.
Consider the case of an arranged marriage. If a woman's parents want to marry her off to someone she doesn't want, at what point does the pressure they are putting on her amount to coercion? What it boils down to to me is that if she can refuse the offer without having good reason to fear for her life, safety, or property, then she was not coerced. She weighed the pros and cons of agreeing to the marriage, and made her decision based on that calculation. If she was a minor, then yes it is coercion. A minor child does not possess the ability to determine for him/herself what is in his/her best interest, and it is inappropriate to push him or her into a marriage. If, however, the woman in question is an adult and just enjoys the free ride she is getting at her parent's expense, which she knows will be withdrawn should she refuse, and calculates that it is in her best interest not to rock the boat, and that the guy is not all that bad really-- then no, absolutely not. She has not be coerced, but rather she has been genuinely persuaded. This gets back to the question I asked you in an earlier post: Why should the onus be on the parents to make life easy for their daughter? Clearly if the daughter were more independent it wouldn't matter what her parents wanted her to do. Once a person becomes an adult they should be sufficiently independent of social ties that they are able to make decisions for themselves as to what is in their best interest. This is important: It is not the responsibility of all the people around you to ensure that what you do is in your own best interest, or to make it easier for you to live your life as you please. THAT IS YOUR RESPONSIBILITY. Parents saying to an adult daughter "If you don't want us to disown you, you have to marry that guy" may be mean and harsh, but it does not amount to coercion in a legal or ethical sense. The woman is an adult. She can go out and take care of herself, and marry whoever she wants (I'm talking about in America, not in an Islamic country where women can't do things like that without fear of being flogged or thrown in prison. In places like that women ARE coerced all the time).
Threatening to withdraw love is not coercive either. The love another person grants you is a privilege, not a right. Therefore it is not yours to claim, and the removal of it does not amount to theft (even though it might cause you a lot of pain). As for people who use their affection in a manipulative way, where I come down on that is that it is your fault if you got involved with someone like that, and the best thing for you to do is to end the relationship, rather than moan and complain about how the other person is "coercing" you. In other words, instead of obsessing about coercion, the thing to do is to just break it off and move on. That also teaches the manipulator the lesson that he or she can't get away with that kind of behavior. If the manipulator gets dumped for being manipulative enough times, maybe they will stop being manipulative. If not, tough for them, and tough for anyone who chooses to be in a relationship with them.
Also remember that everyone has their reasons for staying in what we might consider to be bad relationships. If they are there it is because on some level they want to be. What it comes down to is that it is not for you or me or a manipulative boyfriend or girlfriend to decide what is in anyone else's best interest. That should be the individual's decision and their decision alone.
>>"Some people speak of cultural coercion when the fear of falling out with the group may force people into wearing a certain style of dress, publicly reciting a creed or a pledge of allegiance they find ethically reprehensible, starting to smoke when they'd rather not, etc. Within the definitional framework adopted here, all such things amount to (psychological) coercion if and only if the fear of falling out with the group is the result of purposeful threats by someone. See Peer pressure, Sociology of religion, Pledge of Allegiance."
Wrong. As I have said before, coercive intention does not equal coercive behavior. It necessary condition for it, but far from a sufficient condition. If your girlfriends threaten to stop being friends with you unless you wear purple boots, and you go out and buy a pair of purple boots that you don't even like, you haven't been coerced; you've been a fool. To suggest to people that it is possible for them to be coerced in this way is counterproductive. I would rather emphasize to them that no one can make you do things you don't want to do, and that if something makes you uncomfortable, you just need to say "no". Seeing coercion in these kinds of interactions only encourages a victim mentality, and the kind of attitude that says "I couldn't help it, they made me do it", when in fact it was your own weakness and lack of backbone that was to blame.
>>"Economic coercion
Economic coercion is when a controller of a vital resource uses his advantage to compel a person to do something he would not do if this resource were not monopolized. If someone is the owner of the only water supply, then the owner can compel the thirsty person to pay an exhorbitant price for that water or have him perform enormous labor. This is also referred to as a form of exploitation. It has been argued that as the global economy has expanded greatly in scope, economic coercion has replaced other forms of coercion such as coercion involving physical or military force. [1]
Economic coercion requires market power. In the above example, the coercer's refusal to supply the coercee would be meaningless if the coercee had access to other independent sources of supply. But the coercer can turn his conditional refusal into a vital threat only because of his coercive monopoly over an essential resource, with no other substitutes. In a competitive marketplace, the possibility of economic coercion is much reduced as suppliers are compelled by competition to accept less money or labor for their goods. The potential for economic coercion is