Jew Bashing
Ah, religion; the grand catchall for contentious agendas. Ordinarily I stay away from these issues and let members have their unfettered say, but a recent uptick in Jew bashing at BTM forums brought me out of hiding this week. A good dose of bashing inspires a wise and thoughtful column, so I pass along some fwiw thinking for member review and fresh criticism. lol.
The Zionist/Israel issues are among the most virulent in American/worldwide society today, and these issues have been vigorously debated on this website since the day we opened. Our BTM "policy" has been to encourage reasoned discourse, to avoid censorship, but to intervene when the debate reduces itself to low level namecalling and personal/religious attacks. A handful of members have been banned by management (from both sides of the debate), and others have received warnings, but we obviously need to recognize that the Zionist/Israel issues will continue to be hot buttons for some time to come and there can be no bright line rules for appropriate commentary. Very simply, there are no easy answers, but we think BTM is on the right course with our core guidelines-- no Jew bashing; no personal attacks; reasoned discourse prevails. It's the best we can do with a difficult subject matter area where personal opinions are strong and polarized.
I must admit to some amusement today when one of our posters accused BTM of acting as a pro--Zionist gatekeeper. Not the usual criticism, I must say. As any of you who watch my TV show will attest, detailed discussion of our banksters and war profiteers is a daily staple for me on the television stream. This usually brings backlash and criticism for me about use of anti--Semitic code words (Jewish bankers and war for Israel-- get it?), so today's attack on BTM as a Zionist coverup agency came as a refreshing change of pace. But it's only temporary, I suspect-- more about the DC and Wall Street criminals is on tap for tomorrow's show.
The simple truth of the matter is that we view Jew bashing as inappropriate and counterproductive for many reasons, not the least of which is the fact that Jewish people in America constitute only a miniscule percentage of our population. To say that Americans are somehow enslaved by a tiny handful of Jews is not exactly a ringing endorsement of our own worth as a free people, and that's putting it mildly. I take a lesson on this subject from words of the immortal character "V" in a great favorite movie of mine: "V For Vendetta." As "V" said in his November 5th pirate broadcast to the English people -- we need only look in a mirror for the explanation about what has gone wrong in our country. These words apply squarely to the present day situation here at home.
Jew bashers sometimes have a tendency to overlook rich contributions of the Jewish people in arts; in law; in medicine; and in so many other areas. We at BreakTheMatrix do not, and we also note that a fair number of Jewish people supported Ron Paul in the presidential campaign, and continue to do so. We should not undercut the support and friendship of these freedom colleagues with blanket anti-- Jewish attacks. As with so many things, use of discriminating judgment is essential in any evaluation of Jewish issues.
Finally, it's worth remembering our goals at BreakTheMatrix in considering the right strategy to address the Jew bashing issue. Our effort is all about bringing fundamental change to America, and we at BTM perceive that bashing Jews is a distraction which does little or nothing to advance the cause. Why fight battles about Zionism and Israel when it is unnecessary to do so? Bad policies in the Mideast are already collapsing with no push from us, and we perceive that the overall battle for freedom will be won more quickly and more easily if we choose our adversaries and battlegrounds with prudence and care. A religion based attack against the Jewish people isn't worth the effort; we'll more readily achieve our goals without it.
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Yep, Lieberman, the Wolf, all dual nationals....how can it be?
I agree with you, Scott. Adherents to a religion should not reap rewards for their religion. If it were so, the adherents of the Great Manitou could, according the model of Israel, reclaim much of the Northeast of the U.S. Same analogy! And they were there more than 10,000 years ago in the NE.
"And that is what democracy is all about. If you have this immoral judgement that you should decide the moral fabric of America, which has sided with the re-establishment of the Jewish Homeland for well over 100 years, then you deserve to stew in your own fat."
Ummm chrisberel aka Ibrahim...
I stood up for you once, but you are not worthy of a second defence.
There is no "Jewish Homeland". There is a piece of land that was traded around for a few thousand years, that was forcibly handed to those who claimed Jewish origin because of a feeling of guilt.
Odd, when you think about it, the Gypsies who were also killed en masse in WW2 were not handed a piece of land for their "homeland", nor were the homosexuals...
Nor, were the Mayans, The Incas, the Ainu...
It seems only the Jews were singled out by the world for a place of their own.
Americans have all kinds of views regarding Israel. Most Americans don't give it much thought. For those that do, many have come to the conclusion that Israel is full of bigots and religious zealots who actually "see" themselves as religiously annointed peoples. These Americans understand that there is NO GOD that annoints peoples, nor justification for separating peoples by what god they believe in.
These Americans, of which I belong, understand that the Jews in Israel who claim the land according to their holy bullbook are simply a group of deluded folk making deluded proclamations.
The only reason Israel exists is because the US decided to allow Israel to exist.
As people like you continue to demonstrate what the mentality of the Jewish people is toward other peoples who think differently than you, the erosion of support for Israel will speed up to levels that suprise even the rational among us.
So I would begin by putting the ears back onto your Micky Mouse cap and joining the conversation with reasonable discourse, or the very little sympathy you have for being a victimized religious cult will wane like the plague...
nothing to say
I am very impressed with your knowlege, Ilostmytitletist. You must have studied the topic of Israel a lot.
Scott, from Oregon, doesn't seem so informed. Ibrahim, who lives in Israel, is an apologist for that country, or for AIPAC. Everyone seems to be sucking up to something...........
Israel, if you in the U.S. think it is blooming beyond what you could understand, you are being misled. We, in the U.S. have been led to believe that Israel has conquered the desert. Not true. It is still a desert. Yemen does better with deserts than Israel, for sure. When I went to Israel, I was expecting a tropical paradise. Not so........it is still a desert! The Palestinians are doing well with what has been allocated to them. Thanks to them, we are eating artichokes from Israel! Don't think in big terms when you think of Israel. It's a tiny country. Louisiana is larger. Would you give $3 trillion dollars since 1973 to Louisiana? I think not. Why are we continuing to subsidize a country of 5,000,000 people, about the population of Louisiana, with more subsidies than we give Louisiana? What is really frightening is that the rest of world gave between six and twelve trillion dollars to the 5 million Israelis during the same period. Wake up America! We need our $3 trillion dollars for Americans.
"get over your experiences and learn the broad history of the region and try and understand the casus belli in these terms.
judaism and islam have nothing to do with this discussion, only morality and justice. jews and muslims lived together in peace for many centuries before zionism came about, and your experiences in jerusalem many years ago cannot un-do or explain this occurrence, albeit damning to your line of argument."
You are kidding right? judaism and islam HAVE NOTHING TO DO with the conflict in Israel? I don't know whether to laugh or go use the restroom.
So this all simply a matter of sheep herders being over-run by progressive, 20th century other peoples?
If that is the case, then those Palestinians have no claim, any more than any other indigenous people's have a claim. They lost. Get over it. They are relegated to the pile that includes the Australian aboriginals, the Ainu, the American Indians, The Mayans and Incas...
Progress has defeated them, and they should move along...
"jews and muslims lived together in peace for many centuries before zionism came about"
Ummmm, yes and no. Many Jews who attempted to live in Islamic places were subjected to persecution and violence, but let's not go there...
"if christians and muslims and druze all opposed the creation of a zionist state in lands occupied by palestinians, how can a reasonable (and logical) person argue that religion is the prime mover ?"
Well, to start with, you separated "people" into Christians (a religious cult) Muslims (a religious cult) and Druze (a religious cult) who opposed a fourth group "Jews" (followers of a religious cult). That's a big clue right there that religion was involved.
Secondly, the reason Israel was chosen for Israel was because of the religious and historical links of the land itself. A county in Florida would have been a much wiser choice for the displaced Jewish people after the war, but it didn't suit the prophetic notions that religious people held.
"palestinians resisted zionism because they knew the success of zionism would be at their expense, culminating in their territorial dispossession and displacement, two fears which have , uh hum, materialized".
Palestinians resisted whatever-ism for the same reason American Indians resisted Christians invading their lands. It is psychologically understandable to resist losing what you are used to being in possession of.
I will say it again so you don't think I don't mean it--
To solve the situation in Israel, all you have to do is get rid of religion and then demonstrate to all those who live there that they are linked by DNA to the people they think are not in their "tribe".
The Palestinians and the Jews are the same people historically, they just split, developed different religious views and customs, and then set about hating each other.
RELIGION AND TRIBALISM are the two factors that keep the conflict going.
You are obviously on a site not dedicated to your values, Ibrahim. Why are you here? As the sole person to try to make the rest of us look like fools? You are failing miserably. Go take your weekly check and go home!
Follow this link and Listen and watch Jack Otto explain the history of the Jews that are running things.
I'm sure this will be pulled soon. Its Five parts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66zOgVAnIgE
I was in Jerusalem and all of the areas subjected by Tel Aviv last year. I was trapped behind a "wall" in Ramallah for two days. I was subjected to Israeli troops at various checkpoints. Even the most intelligent of Palestinians are beginning to be very irate with the situation. One person from Ramallah walked three hours from Jerusalem to Ramallah because her car would have been detained on the "Israeli" side of Ramallah. Give me a break! Go to Israel before you respond on this site! It is nice to sit in your U.S. Ivory Tower and make stupid allegations about Israel. Go there! Please.........
"Even the most intelligent of Palestinians are beginning to be very irate with the situation."
It took them over 40 years? Couldn't be that intelligent.
What they are irate about is the failure of the Palestinian gov't to reign in terrorism so that life can become normal.
the point i clearly made that was missed on you was that a consensus was reached on the opposition to zionism, and if many different religious groups are represented and yet there is a consensus on one issue, then how does an argument claiming religion is so crucial remain tenable?
in even more simple terms :
if christians and muslims and druze all opposed the creation of a zionist state in lands occupied by palestinians, how can a reasonable (and logical) person argue that religion is the prime mover ?
I do not care about the experiences of one person or a family of persons ; utterly irrelevant.
i found it curious you had no retort on benny morris's comments in his book ....
palestinians resisted zionism because they knew the success of zionism would be at their expense, culminating in their territorial dispossession and displacement, two fears which have , uh hum, materialized.
get over your experiences and learn the broad history of the region and try and understand the casus belli in these terms.
judaism and islam have nothing to do with this discussion, only morality and justice. jews and muslims lived together in peace for many centuries before zionism came about, and your experiences in jerusalem many years ago cannot un-do or explain this occurrence, albeit damning to your line of argument.
"Scott, No Genocide?
0What world are you living in, Scott, from Oregon? You need to read more."
Ummm, like I said, I was witness to what transpired in Jerusalem back in the 60's. Our family has followed the nonsense for over 40 years. I can tell you what is happening in Israel, because it is the same thing that was happening 40 years ago.
There is no genocide occuring in Israel. What there is, is a religious and tribal conflict over a piece of land, with both sides behaving badly, and one side doing a better job of killing than the other side.
If every Jewish girl had a baby with a Palestinian boy, and every Palestinian girl had a Jewish father one of her chiildren, and then all religions in the area were shown to be the ridiculous nonsense that they are...
The problem would dissipate in a couple of years...
"scott, religion has NOTHING to do with the conflict between the palestinians and israelis"
Ummm, I lived in Jerusalem from 63 to 67. Pops was a pilot for the UN, trying to resolve the issue for both sides. So I am speaking from experience here, though much is second hand stuff I gleaned from pops.
Religion AND tribalism are the TWO largest factors in th conflict. Take away both, and you have no conflict.
Funny, you tell me religion has nothing to do with the conflict, and then you proceed to mention the various religious sects involved in the conflict.
I'll ask you, WHY did you mention the various religious sects if religion has nothing to do with the conflict?
If these were individual land disputes, a simple court could resolve the issue.
These are religious and tribal conflicts. Remove the religion and the tribal identities, and you have resolved the conflict.
scott, religion has NOTHING to do with the conflict between the palestinians and israelis. palestinians are predominantly sunni muslim with a very substantial christian minority (double figures). religion was no casus belli before the mass immigrations of jewish refugees fleeing european persecution.
benny morris is an israeli historian and has written tomes on this issue ; in one book he concludes that the palestinians did not resist zionism because of the ethnicity/religion of zionists, but because the success of zionism would mean territorial dispossession and displacement for the palestinian people.
perhaps you should read the last lines several times.
the king-crane commission was very clear on this issue as well. king and crane went from village to village post WW I and asked the people on preferences to mandate powers, and they also asked about the creation of a jewish homeland in palestine. more than 90% of the respondents said they opposed a jewish homeland in palestine, not because of any animus towards jewish people, but because of the obvious injustices such a move would bring. these questions were asked of shia, sunni, druze, christians etc and they were all united in their opposition.
lastly, whether or not a webster's-defined genocide is occurring, what is clear is that the israelis are being heavily criticized by the entire world community (except the us) and are heavily criticized by all of the mainstream human rights groups ; amnesty, human rights watch, b'tselem, physicians for human rights - israel, etc. so what's wrong with this picture when this criticism is very rare in the us ?
well claire, international law is very clear on intentions. please visit human rights watch and/or amnesty international and/or b'tselem :
when there is a such a huge disparity in losses (4800 dead palestinians versus 1000 dead israelis) intent matters not. israel is guilty of indiscriminate killing. about 2000 palestinian children have been killed alone since the start of the 2nd intifada, which is twice the number of total israeli deaths.
2nd, your comment that israel surrendered the gaza in good faith is a joke. 9000 ILLEGAL israeli settlers were simply transferred to the west bank, and israel petitioned washington for a one-time aid disbursement of 2.5 billion for this relocation, which israel distributed to the settlers for relocation (240,000 per). who paid for this? we the taxpayers in the us did. so you call this a good faith surrendering of the gaza? it is a criminal west bank expansion that americans paid for in fact and continue to pay for with the ongoing decline of the image of the us.
you need to understand that israel signed the un charter which expressly forbids acquisition of territory by force. all the lands acquired since the 1967 june war israel cannot retain by international law. that is why the un parameters of 242 and others all refer to the 1967 june borders.
the crime is that a murderous apartheid colonialist government can continue to get away with more contraventions of un resolutions than iraq, iran syria and north korea all combined. should the palestinians not resist their lands being confiscated, their dignity stolen in a brutal 41 year occupation?
42 times since 1972 the us has protected israel at the security council ; moreover in all these cases the us was the lone veto for security council resolutions targeting israeli criminality . many of these measures were not even controversial. e.g. in the 80's there was a un sc resolution calling for recognizing the inalienable human rights of the palestinian people. the vote count was 14-1. the us vetoed this measure. please explain this vote, and the many more just like it.
in 1988 the general assembly voted on the question of palestine ; 134 members of the world community agreed on the need to solve the conflict in line with the 242 parameters. 2 did not, the us and israel. the real question to ask is why the us should continue to support the immoral and illegal policies of a pariah nation at our own expense and peril?
What world are you living in, Scott, from Oregon? You need to read more.
How can anyone say that there is no genocide of Palestinians? One Israeli killed for every 10 Palestinians. A N D the Palestianians are killed with high tech weapons (furnished by us, in the U.S), while the Israelis are killed with stones and stone-aged missiles. Even if the Palestinians are procreating at a greater rate, as you have postulated, Ibrahim, the birth-rate is not an off-set to genocide being committed. Genocide is your answer to higher birth-rates? Think about it...
>>"How can anyone say that there is no genocide of Palestinians? One Israeli killed for every 10 Palestinians. A N D the Palestianians are killed with high tech weapons (furnished by us, in the U.S), while the Israelis are killed with stones and stone-aged missiles."
Do Israeli forces specifically target Palestinian civilians in terrorist attacks? The way it looks to me is that Hamas terrorists are the ones targeting civilians, whereas Israeli forces are going after the terrorists. Please give us an example of the deliberate and wanton taking of innocent lives by Israelis, an example of a raid or bombing where there is no military target, just killing civilians for the sake of killing civilians.
I don't think you can make the case that the Israeli government is attempting to destroy all Palestinians. They surrendered Gaza in good faith, and yet they are still being attacked in their buses and their marketplaces. Israeli civilians are no safer for having made that concession. What are they supposed to do? Do you really thing that handing over other disputed territories will put an end to the violence? I'm sure that if there was any evidence for this Israel would consider relinquishing the occupied territories. But they don't believe it for a minute, and neither should we.
"what I detest is that the Zionists have hi-jacked our tax dollars to commit genocide of Palestinians."
I am sorry, but this nonsense has to stop. There is no "genocide" of the Palestinians.
Those that make this claim are ignorant at best.
What you have is a situation where two related peoples, separated by about 5000 years of tribal living, are both falsely claiming "ownership" to a strip of nearly useless land in the Mid-East. One of these two groups is being supplied by a biased outsider (US) and is better at killing due to the tools at its disposal than the other group.
Tit for tat military actions is not genocide, and the situation is not a simple polar equation.
However, what CAN BE ASSERTED is that religion and tribal "patriotism" are the root causes for the violence occuring in Israel.
If you want to resolve the conflict, stop taking sides and start focusing on the CAUSE, which is religion and tribalism.
My poster children are wonderful; what I detest is that the Zionists have hi-jacked our tax dollars to commit genocide of Palestinians. If, as you say, all Jews are Zionists, let all of them personally donate to Israel, but don't make me a party to the genocide and thefts that you are committing in Israel by confiscating my tax dollars for the purpose! If you Zionists (all Jews, you claim) want to build illegal settlements in and around Jerusalem, don't make me pay $245,000 for each unit you tear down later because you have violated terms of International Law! Support yourselves, Zionists! I will never have any respect for you as long as you try to make the rest of the world a party to your illegal actions...!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
There has been no genocide of the palestinians, except that done by the Kuwaitis in 1991 retaliating for the palestinian assistance to Iraq in the Rape of Kuwait, the genocide of palestinians commited by the Lebanese in 1982 rataliating for the murder of their leader, the genocide commited by the Jordanians in 1970 in retaliation for Arafat's murderous attempt at civil war.
During the so-called genocide you refer to, the Palestinian people have increased from 1.5 million to 10 million.
Do you think that the Jewish people, overwhelmingly successful in every human endeavor, are failures in this aspect?
I never stated that all Jews are Zionists. You would be a liar stating such so I must chalk it down to your inability to read a sentence and comprehend the words. Better you be thought an idiot then a liar.
Take your respect and shove it where the sun don't shine. The respect of an idiot is not worth earning.
And you've outlived your welcome here at BreakTheMatrix. R
My comment is: When those organizations can equate Zionism with all Jews or adherents of Judaism, they have won the battle already. To make Zionists another "protected" group would really subvert our constitution. Zionists believe Israel is the homeland of all Jews. I can tell you that there are plenty who do not want to live in Israel. I can think of about 6,000,000 who live in the U.S. and have no intention of living in Israel. Finkelstein is one! Chomsky is another!
except in the minds of those who listen to the same sources as the members of Storm Front, IHR, Boris, patriot, CAIR, and others who have an agenda.
The only reason any organization can state, as a fact, that all Jews who define themselves as Jews, religiously, are zionists (and that includes NK), is because it is the absolute truth.
Zionists believce that Israel is the homeland of all Jews because it is a religous tenent.
By the way, the "battle" was won well before any of us were born.
Most ultra-leftists consider Chomsky to be a zionist. Most everyone else considers Finkelstein to be a self-hating mutant. Nice poster children you have.
...and he wants them back.
Trying to force Boris to love you won't make it happen.
Ibrahim is here because he thinks someone here stole the ears off of his Micky Mouse cap...
I was expecting a whole lot more from a site that purports to "break the matrix".
If you really want to know what's going on in the world you need to go to:
http://www.infowars.com/
Sure, they delve into the bizarre but there's also a focus on the corruption in government and a tight focus on breaking through the matrix of media propaganda. It's one site where will always find the big stories that the mainstream media likes to ignore.
Take today for example, we had a spontaneous interview with Willie Nelson where he openly discussed 9/11 truth, impeachment and the Iran war and agreed to head up a concert to bring more attention to these issues, Dennis Kucinich on the impeachment hearing coming this Friday, Dr William Pepper on his research into the assassinations of Dr Martin Luther King Jr and Robert Kennedy, Mark Koernke on self defense and militia training and Saint John Hunt the son of infamous CIA agent E. Howard Hunt who recently made a death bed confession on being part of the JFK assassination team.
An incredible show and I feel so sad for all of you people that miss out on this information because you have such perfectly mainstream media molded minds...
If you want to know what BREAKING THE MATRIX is all about pay attention to Alex Jones, Bob Chapman and the many other excellent hosts out there that don't let labels like "America hater", "jew basher" or "conspiracy theorist" keep them from covering important information that the mainstream media won't touch.
Don't worry. The fool believes in so much BS that his nights are always full.